Posts by drew sagan

8

What is the world's most eschatalogical religion, if not the JWs?

by james_woods in

what got me started on this was the other thread on the worn out time of the end message of the watchtower.. i kind of thought it deserved a thread of it's own - being a little bit off the original subject.. two questions - .

first - i think we could say that the jws are probably within the very top two or three of the most strident "time of the end" screaming people on earth.

if they are not number one, then who else could possibly hold that honor?.

drew sagan

The most eschatalogical religions end up either getting their members to commit suicide or joining Yisrayl Hawkins.

As it stands this statement simply is not true. I would add to it that physically isolated eschatological religions end up getting their members to commit suicide, ect

There simply is no record of a group holding the dynamics like the JWs moving into something like mass suicide. While the behavioral patterns in thought control and group ideaism may be similiar, the physical isolation of the group is usually always a determining factor in wether or not they go off the deep end.

Remember that many people in Jonestown did not actually wish to commit suicide, they did so only because guns were pointed at their heads.

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

Still coming up in the publications. "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" (2005) has a whole appendix section on 1914.

Yes, and it is by far the weakest presentation of the "facts" regarding their 1914 teaching ever put forward by the WTS.

I believe that the appendix (which amounts to nothing more than a few pages and a dozen or so paragraphs) is an example of the Watchtowers growing tendency to retreat into isolation. It used to be that paragraph upon paragraph was provided with numbers, figures, references, ect to prove their date is true. Now they throw out a few generic sentences and leave it at that. Just look at how full of content their books were in the 50's and 60's. They have been in a steady progression of saying less and less. It is this kind of behavior that suggests to me that the title of this thread has meaning, they continue to grow irrelevant and have no strategy to dig themselves out of the hole.

50

Do You Still Believe In Anything JWs Taught You?

by minimus in

jw
friends

are there any beliefs that you learned from the witnesses that you still believe in?

drew sagan

Because there are many positions held by the Watchtower on non confrontation issues (like telling people to love their wife or something like that) I think I would qualify the statement by instead saying "do you still believe anything that is uniquely taught by the JW's?

My answer to that question is a resounding no

The Watchtower is probably the most highly restrictive theological system out there when it comes to major religions. Either you believe it all, or it all crumbles. While some people that leave may agree on what teachings contained in christian orthodoxy should be rejected (hellfire, trinity, ect), there would probably be a lack of agreement on what should replace such teachings.

2

Pew Results on JW's and Interesting Commentary

by NYCkid in

the pew forum released it's results of the u.s. religious survey.

although the results found that americans are becoming more religiously tolerant, evangelicals and jehovah's witnesses are the least likely to be tolerant (not surprisingly).

to see how the jw's ranked, go to http://religions.pewforum.org/ and click on any of the four categories, then find jehovah's witnesses.. for an interesting commentary of the results, go to the blog http://www.acbnyc.blogspot.com/.

drew sagan

The numbers reflect a few important things, the major one being that the isolationism created by the Watchtower leadership has had an amazing effect on their flock.

I think the one thing that is making the Witness numbers higher in this poll as opposed to all other religions is education. Every other group has allowed within it's ranks people to go to college, become scholars, publish articles, and pursue some sort of academic career. The Watchtower has not. It has rejected society as a whole and refuses to engage in the normal processes it uses to establish understanding about the world around us.

The Watchtower organization has essentially retreated from society, labeled itself all powerful and all knowing, yet refuses to engage society in any reasonable way to prove what they believe is true. This is isolationism. Their rhetoric can only be believed by people who believe that society is fully corrupt. Even the mormons have integrated with society. In fact, the poll shows that 20-30% of mormons are more in line with the views of society than the JWs.

2

NEED SCAN of 2003 Watchtower UPDATE: DISREGARD

by V in

i need a scan of the watchtower december 15, 2003 page 26.. this should be the photo of the gilead graduation.

please scan the entire page.

if you can help post a comment here first (or simply post the scan on this topic).

drew sagan

I think i've got that at home. I'll check for it this evening.

10

Are Jehovah's Witnesses intolerant? - See what the NY Times shows.

by vivalavida in

this is the first topic that i start.

anyway, i was reading today in the new york times that religious tolerance has increased in the states.

however, when one takes a look at the graphic that they show.

drew sagan

I tell you what. Regardless of how the Society rates these people, they are still self-proclaimed JW's. So they count in the polls, even if their stated "affiliation" would shun them in the pews.

Excellent point. They are what they are, even though what the are is not what they are ;)

13

Need some advice

by superman in

jw
friends

my story is that i am faded (not df'd, da'd, or even reproofed, just slowly stopped going and gave up privileges and responsibilities).

a good jw friend of mine is getting married in the kh and asked me to be his best man.

i'm curious as to what the rule is about getting married in the kh and who you can have standing up in your wedding?

drew sagan

I would wait to hear back from your friend after he tells the Elders his plans to make you a part of the wedding. For what it is worth, I had my brother who is not a JW be the best man at my wedding. I don't think they may care all that much, but it is possible that they could try and use it as a way to bring you back.

I would take a wait and see attitude.

54

Is Genesis account just a myth?

by AK - Jeff in

there are many stories that make we wonder if anything akin to solid reasoning can prop up the bible's accounts of early life on earth.

but perhaps this scripture is a key:.

"these are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the lord god made the earth and the heavens, and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the lord god had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

drew sagan

So, if I get what you are saying [bear with me I am dense as hell aren't I?] - the accounts were reality, represented in allegory?

I think you're beginning to catch on ;)

The book I referenced earlier likens it somewhat to Jonathan Swifts book, Gullivers Travels. You can read the book on a number of different levels. Sure there is the adventure story that even children can enjoy, but layered beneath that is are sophisticated literary techniques that offer a lot more. So the story functions on a number of different levels and simply aren't just 'true or false' in that regard.

I shall have to look into the Midrash. Would this be a good place to start?

you can try this out

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/mhl/index.htm

Lots of ancient Jewish literature is available online. There really is more than you could ever possibly read. To get an overview of it all you may want to skim through this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_Literature

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

wholesale reinvention of their eschatological beliefs.

I won't doubt that this is a possibility.

I tend to think of it this way. The 1975 fiasco was 33 years ago. Add to that people who were babies all the way up to 10 years old or so were probably not affected, nor understood what happened at the time. This means that anybody in the organization under 40 has never experienced the fallout of a produced date.

From what I see the WTS is currently nearing the end of what can be labeled the "post 1975 era". After the 75' fiasco the Watchtower adjusted a number of policies and practices and set in motion an organization structure that essential remain unchanged until the last few years. Almost every member of the governing body through the 70's, 80's, and even some of the 90's came from the 1970's and earlier. I don't believe any members were elected to the GB in the 1980's.

So the current question is, what is the Watchtower going to do to transition out of this 'post 75' era? Because so many people are in the organization never have experienced major eschatological change, they may move in that direction sometime in the next 15 years or so. But I believe there are some major dangers that face the WTS in this regard.

If the eschatological structure is changed to suggest that the end will occur within 30-40 years the Watchtower could suffer a terrible fallout after such things fail to pass. They are not as strong as they once were and neither are their believers. Notice how the Watchtower continues to harp on about how "bad" peoples attitudes are within the group. This is a more recent development which came through somewhat in the 1980's, stronger in the 90's, and is blaring in the 00's. The Watchtower has more members today that are willing to complain and get frustrated than ever before (and for good reason!). Promising the end within their lifetime is a hell of a lot more risky that promising it to those who survived the Rutherford years.

Also, the WTS has made a number of moves that suggest they are sticking with their current model. Reprinting and studying the Revelation book come to my mind. They also have refined their generation teaching into a belief that simply can go on indefinitely.

The general feeling that I get is that they recognize that reform is needed, but are unwilling to give up their beliefs in order to deal with it. This is why I think the future is dangerous for them. Either they move into some pretty serious reform, or they take the risk and put forward a new eschatological system. But one thing they cannot afford to do is slowly change the organization in fairly mundane ways over time while continuing to hold to beliefs that hinder their progress. I believe that such inaction moves them further and further towards a position of complete irrelevance.

54

Is Genesis account just a myth?

by AK - Jeff in

there are many stories that make we wonder if anything akin to solid reasoning can prop up the bible's accounts of early life on earth.

but perhaps this scripture is a key:.

"these are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the lord god made the earth and the heavens, and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the lord god had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

drew sagan

But did they know [the Jewish history weavers I mean] that it was legend, and not fact?

They believed the stories were handed to their people by god ;) so I guess you could say 'yes'.

Although the stories were taken as the direct word of God they were not looked upon as just literal stories relating scientific fact. Many today would see the stories as either true or false. Such was not the concern of those who revered and examined this account for centuries. They could see them as true and figurative and anything else for that matter, all at the same time. Just read some of the Midrash to find out.